Sunday, August 03, 2008

Nationalism- not just for the nasty things in life

The distinction between nationalism and patriotism? "Smug nonsense", writes Ceri Ames, "usually spoken by those from dominant ‘nationalities’ who have never understood the ‘minority’ nation’s refusal to assimilate".

With the by-election victory in Glasgow East, the SNP has again reminded the rest of the UK of its existence, and just how close Scotland is to a referendum on independence. And, as usual, the prospect of this brings out the usual lines. The most common relies on pointing out how much English money is invested in Scotland, and how much Scotland relies on English subsidies, as though an independent Scotland would be instantly cut adrift from the rest of Britain, and an economic iron curtain thrown across the border.

Similarly, the opposite argument, of Scotland and England’s interdependence, is also misplaced. Many independent states are economically interlinked (Denmark linked its membership of the EU with the UK’s due to its economic ties).

Eventually, then, the argument against nationalism is rolled in. Nationalism is narrow-minded, aggressive and exclusive, and, if not actually violent, could easily become so. It is usually contrasted with patriotism, which is a “devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people”, according to George Orwell. Patriotism is inclusive, born of love for country, rather than hatred of another. At this point, to drive home the argument, the Nazis or the BNP are mentioned as nationalists par excellence.

Now, I’m not going to deny the bad things that have been done in the name of nationalism, but I do want to question two points.

First, the distinction between nationalism and patriotism. For me, this is just nonsense. Moreover, smug nonsense, usually spoken by those from dominant ‘nationalities’, who have never understood the ‘minority’ nation’s refusal to assimilate. This is JS Mill, the classic British liberal:

Nobody can suppose that it is not more beneficial to a Breton, or a Basque of French Navarre, to be brought into the current of the ideas and feelings of a highly civilized and cultivated people—to be a member of the French nationality, admitted on equal terms to all the privileges of French citizenship, sharing the advantages of French protection, and the dignity and prestige of French power—than to sulk on his own rocks, the half-savage relic of past times, revolving in his own little mental orbit, without participation or interest in the general movement of the world. The same remark applies to the Welshman or the Scottish Highlander, as members of the British nation.”

It pretty much sums up the mental world of the British elite over the last few centuries, and explains their bafflement at our mystifying desire for independence.
Without complicating things too much, just consider how British or American ‘patriots’ have behaved, whether in building empires, or just generally bombing small countries, all in the name of British civilisation or defense of the American way of life. The only difference between patriotism and nationalism is the extent to which one is happy with the status quo and one wants change. It is no coincidence that the rise of English nationalism has occurred over the last 15 years or so, as fears of the EU grow in the UK.

If nationalism was simply based on hatred of difference, or even one particular ‘other’, and intolerance, then we would not have seen the enthusiasm for the EU shown by many European nationalists of non-state nations.
In fact, patriotism is a lazy, self-satisfied, complacent phenomenon, just as capable of sleep walking into violence as any foaming at the mouth nationalism, and just as capable of turning into hatred of those ‘threatening’ it.

Conversely, my own (Welsh) nationalism is in no way ‘exclusive’ (we need all the people we can get). I would consider myself to be a lot more tolerant than most English (or any other) patriots. I just believe that an independent Wales would be a lot more like the kind of place that I want to live in than a Wales within the UK, and would also probably do a better job of nurturing our talent and culture than the UK has managed. Beyond that, it implies almost nothing about my political beliefs. Can I just ask not to be compared to Hitler because of this?

30 comments:

Jason Wyrd said...

Couple of questions out of interest:
1. what is a welsh nationalist doing living in England?

2. Do you support the creation of an English parliament?

Emma said...

What makes you think he lives in England?

Jason Wyrd said...

Hagley Road To Ladywood. Both in Birmingham, England.

Does he not live in England?

claude said...

Nope, Wales. Not that it would make a difference. Unless you're of the opinion that you need to live in Washington DC to have an opinion about George W. Bush or Central Saigon to have an opinion about the VietNam war.

Ceri said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ceri said...

I can confirm my current residency in Wales.
As for living in England, just reclaiming our land...
Kinda misses the point, though. I'm not rabidly xenophobic, so why not live in England.
As for an English parliament, well if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland go, then voila, an English parliament.
If you mean an English parliament within the UK, can't see it helping, probably better off with regional English assemblies if you want to keep the UK.

Anonymous said...

So you think it's fair that Scottish and Welsh MPs vote on purely English matters while English MPs don't have a say in Scottish or Welsh matters...
Can't you grasp the double standards?

Ceri said...

Anonymous,
England invaded, fought and finally conquered Wales over a thousand years, then for the next five hundred years proceeded to legislate against the language, force us to conform to succeed and ridiculed those who did not, so, yeah, I can handle the 'injustice' of having a say (no more) in English affairs. Although, I actually want no say in English affairs. An English parliament would just accelerate the end of the UK in my opinion, so I'm not that bothered about the idea.
(Mind you I said nothing about this previously, you just assumed my opinion)

gadgie said...

If regional assemblies were good for England, why not abolish the welsh assembly and split wales in two with north and south assemblies
ditto Scotland, edinburgh for the east and glasgow for the west?
Then ban the words wales and scotland, welsh and scots. then you will have the equivalent of what is happening in England.
do we want to keep the uk? No we don't and we don't want the eu either. that independence look you.

Maria said...

England didn't force YOU to do anything - nor is the concept of yourself living in England "reclaiming" YOUR land. Do you believe all the clearcut nonsense waffled about "Celts" and "Anglo Saxons"? Do you believe that YOU are a "pure" Celt?

Your comments prove that you are not tolerant. You are a racist Little Walesean, who believes that you have more right on this island because you are (apparently) some type of "pure" bred Celt.

You're as mongrel as the English - and you cannot claim what YOU might call "unsullied" lineage back to the year dot.

Nobody can.

You are to be treated with contempt! You over-identify with something which is largely myth.

Anonymous said...

I would consider myself to be a lot more tolerant than most English patriots.

So you know "most english patriots" then? That one sentence sums you up. You aint nothing but an anti English bigot!

As for England being your land well that's a joke isnt it boyo? There were other people in what we now call England before you lot. They left their pottery behind or are you going to deny they existed? No pal, you just another petty little bitter walisc wanker!
When is wlaes going to be split into regions? Everyone knows the real welchers, those descended from the Romans that is ha! ha! live in north wales.
Everyone knows that "welsh" has a lot of latin in it where did that come from? TOSSSSSSSSER!

claude said...

"racist Little Walesean", "intolerant", "TOSSSSRR"....for those who throw the above accusation it's a fine display of tolerance and moderation. isn't it?

But above all, what has all of the above got to do with the fact that Wales and Scotland should not be ruled by England?

Emma said...

Yes, quite right. It is rather ironic that you accuse Ceri of being the intolerant one, yet you throw around trite insults and quips like 'boyo', 'petty wanker' and er, 'Walisc' (?)

I'd be interested to know where exactly Ceri mention pure-bred Celts? As far as I can see the only one who ranted on about that was you, Maria. Also, not to mention the fact that, yes, Wales WAS forced to be part of the UK, even though they bravely fought against the English (especially during the middle ages) but, like other nations pillaged by us lovely English, were continually repressed. And for the last time, no, he does not live in England. He lives in Wales.

Accusing people of saying/writing things that they did not isn't on.

Reading articles and the comments more carefully in future might help your argument in the future.

Anonymous said...

Yes, quite right. It is rather ironic that you accuse Ceri of being the intolerant one, yet you throw around trite insults and quips like 'boyo', 'petty wanker' and er, 'Walisc' (?)

I gather you know what hypocrisy means? If not, look it up!

I'd be interested to know where exactly Ceri mention pure-bred Celts? As far as I can see the only one who ranted on about that was you, Maria.

Well, I never mentioned the word celt because as everyone knows, it's a made up word invented by sir walter scot! I will assume he made it up because of his innate insecurities!

Also, not to mention the fact that, yes, Wales WAS forced to be part of the UK, even though they bravely fought against the English (especially during the middle ages)

No it wasn't "Wales" was "forced" to be part of England by king Henry the eighth. He was descended from who exactly? I doubt you know. Does the name Tudor ring any bells?
Oh by the way, it was the Normans who took over "wales"; not the English. That is why there are all those norman castles in "wales". You dont even know your own history.
Ha! ha! ha! there was no UK in the middle ages

but, like other nations pillaged by us lovely English, were continually repressed.

Such as?

The Romans took over "wales" for 400 years that's why there are so many latin words in the "welsh" language. Ha! ha!


You never answered any of my comments. Why not? Too thick isn't it?

claude said...

wow, a lot of repressed anger there "anonymous"...hope you felt better after your outburst. sometimes i wonder if blogs perform the public duty shrinks should...

But, to the point.
You call people thick, but you don't realy use your little brain much, do you?
Cos, if you did, you'd know that the fact the Romans allegedly conquered Wales is no excuse for England keeping it for 700 years. it's like saying that the Maya conquered the Yucatan hence the Spaniards were allowed to pillage...fuck off will ya?

like when you go all dense with "but, like other nations pillaged by us lovely English, were continually repressed.
Such as?"

oh how i wish you were born in India and deported to Uganda by "the cradle of democracy" and then forced to leave again 2 generations down the line and beg "THE CRADLE"for asylum. and hey, you clever knucklehead, course you haven't heard of the atrocities the Proud Empire committed in Australia, against the native population...until at least WWII. Or shall we talk about Ireland, India, Cyprus, Egypt...

Just admit you're a nationalist rightwing dickhead and sign with your own name...

And stop mentioning races and breeds ("the Celts") as if we were talking abt pedigree dogs.
If thats what you wanna talk about, go and take your ugly anonymous face elsewhere.

ciao and sorry about the demise of the Empire. A copy of the Sun should console you xxx

claude said...

Hey, I just thought, Anonymous...
Poland should still be under the Russians cos the Nazis invaded it first... thats how your brain works, isnt it? "ha ha ha"

Ceri said...

Well... where to start?
OK Gadgie, I've no problem with different assemblies within Wales, if their wanted. Obviously I'd prefer a united Wales, but would certainly be in favour of far greater deveolved power than currently seen in the UK.
I actually think regional assemblies could be good for England, but that's up to you.

Maria...Do I believe the comment about claiming back land- No, it was joke. Simple as that
As for the stuff about Celts? What are you on about? I mentioned none of this. I hoped it would be obvious from my post that I don't think in those terms. I clearly have a strong identification with Wales, but not in a racial or 'genetic' sense. In fact I tried fairly hard in my youth to ditch my sympathy for Welsh culture. I would agree that ethnic identities are largely created (or 'imagined' if you prefer), but they are fairly powerful, and as I tried to point out, not necessarily destructive or negative.
As for England forcing me to do anything- well lots of my life has been shaped by the outcome of the historical struggles between different regions of Britain- many of these outcomes feel unjust, from a Welsh point of view.


OK- anonymous- So you know "most english patriots" then?
What do you want me to do?, commission an opinion poll?
Let's just say that I'm a fairly tolerant person, more tolerant than most people I've met, and therefore probably more tolerant than most English patriots (the majority of those that I met were pretty intolerent, by the way)
The comment about claiming land back- yes, again, a joke. Christ, I think I must have touched a nerve there.
As for your comments about pottery and Romans, they don't really deserve a response, but since I'm so tolerant...
Those people in Britan prior to the Roman invasion were generally held to be culturally 'British', spoke a language that appears to have been the ancestor of modern Welsh (and others) and associated with the Iron Age culure of Britain. It seems likely that the descendents of these people were the 'British' when Roman rule collapsed.
As for previous cultures on this island- well we know their artefacts and some of their behaviour, but who knows what their 'genetic' heritage was? and what that implies about their ethnicity is anyone's guess. But as I say, all this is utterly beyond anything I said in the original post or a reply.

As for your (I'm asuming) second post, again, barely deserves a response, but here we go...
I'm fairly convinced that Celt has almost no meaning in a British context, although it is more complicated than Scott making it up- if your interested then try John Collis 'Celts: Origins, Myths and Inventions' as a good starting point.Although, again, if Celt means something to people today, then its origins aren't desperately important.
As for the Norman/English thing, well certainly the elite at the time of the conquest of Wales from the late eleventh to late thirteenth centuries would have been Norman, along with the impetus for the invasion, but the English had fought against Wales prior to that (Harold Godwinson made a pretty good effort at asserting overlordship in about 1063).
By the time of Henry Tudor (whose paternal grandparents were Welsh), the distinction between Norman and English would have been less clear cut, following the upheavals of the fourteenth century and the loss of lands in France.
The conquest of Wales was just that, invasion and conquest, and the subsequent 'unification' an attempt to erase a Welsh identity, at least from the upper classes, at which is was only partly successful.
The emphasis on the Welsh Tudor was an attempt at bolstering support from Welsh lords, and this later became an attempt for legitimacy as the 'Britsh' king- hence the emphasis on Arthur that emerges at this time.
If you want to make further points, feel free, but could you try to be less of an internet warrior next time. I could debate this stuff all day, but try to be minimally civil.
Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Oh, the little biatch has a raw nerve on show for all to see. I do love it when people like you throw in terms in an attempt to make yourself sound all "trendy" and "progressive". As for repression of anger...you ought to know boyo.

e.g. the following:

"...like when you go all dense with "but, like other nations pillaged by us lovely English, were continually repressed.
Such as?"

"The empire was not English was it boyo? That is why there are places called New South Wales isnt it boyo? Oh let me see, what about Patagonia? That was an attempt at colonisation you hypocrite. Just because the boyo's and socks and patricks were not successful doesn't mean they didnt try it. I suppose youve never heard of the socks failed attempt at colonisation either?
India was not "continually repressed". Oh I love getting you repressed, pc self haters going. It makes my day punk! Ha! ha! So what do you have to say about India oppressing Ceylon? Yeah! That's okay isn't it? You cant drag anyone English into that one so why mention it?

What about this rubbish?

oh how i wish you were born in India and deported to Uganda by "the cradle of democracy" and then forced to leave again 2 generations down the line and beg "THE CRADLE"for asylum.

Tell me mister intellectual, where can I find the link whereby it says the "British - NOT English - empire" deported indians to Uganda? Well? Oh well, if you hate Idi Amin that much why not just come out and say so? Oh yes, he wasnt English.


and hey, you clever knucklehead, course you haven't heard of the atrocities the Proud Empire committed in Australia, against the native population...until at least WWII. Or shall we talk about Ireland, India, Cyprus, Egypt...

"Atrocities"? "Ireland"? Oh you really dont know about Dermot Macmurrough the traitor? What about Henry the second? He was French, not English.
Atrocities? What about the irish who fought against the united states and for Mexico? They killed people.
Well what about the scottish "loyalists" in the American wars of independence? Loyal to whom? More like greedy trouble makers. Thye also killed people.

Nobody mention the black and tans either ah? Or this bloke!
SCOTTISH MAJOR DONALD MACLEOD OF SKYE:
Land grabber, 19th century
On leaving the Highlands for a new life in the newly opened wilderness of Australia, Macleod from Skye, caused the deaths of huge numbers of Aborigines when he annexed their land for sheep farming.

Atrocities against aborigines by the so-called SCOTTISH Highland Brigade in Australia culminated in 1843 at Warrigal Creek. Many aboriginal men, women and children were killed.

Eric Richards, Professor of History at Flinders University, in Adelaide, said: "The likes of Macleod were ruthless. They came to Australia and thought they had the right to take over the land.

"They got rid of anyone who was in their way, making it extremely rough for the innocent Aboriginals."

Nice!!

Ha! ha! Why can you not admit that you just cant stand the fact that Europeans have kicked arse...and still do? If you hate Europe so much go live in Algeria or Botswana. No! Zimbabwe. I am sure they'll welcome you with open AK-47's. Oh I suppose that's the English people's fault to ah? Who gave them the guns? I do believe they bought them themselves.

Here's your stupidity personified!

boyo:
"I would consider myself to be a lot more tolerant than most English patriots"

boyo later on:
"you don't realy use your little brain much, do you?"

"fuck off will ya?"

"Just admit you're a nationalist rightwing dickhead"

"I'm a fairly tolerant person, more tolerant than most people I've met, and therefore probably more tolerant than most English patriots"

Aha! ha! ha! Yeah, you're so tolerant you called me a dickhead and told me to fuck off. My fackin' arse you're tolerant.

I clearly have a strong identification with Wales, but not in a racial or 'genetic' sense.

So you're not welsh then! So what are yer then?

Those people in Britan prior to the Roman invasion were generally held to be culturally 'British'

AHA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! What utter tripe! "Generally held"? Yeah. By whom?

AHA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
Liar! The first people in the islands were known as the Beaker folk. This is an established FACT!

As for previous cultures on this island- well we know their artefacts and some of their behaviour, but who knows what their 'genetic' heritage was? and what that implies about their ethnicity is anyone's guess.

"previous cultures"? You mean previous tribes of people. That is what they were. They were distinct from those who fled across the channel afterwards. Stop trying to make out they were not different from the "welsh". They were different people. Gawd! It's like saying that the English people and the pakis are the same. We are not the same. The Beaker folk were not "welsh". You cant just re write history because your agenda doesnt stand up. I suppose you're a fascist!

who knows what their 'genetic' heritage was? and what that implies about their ethnicity is anyone's guess.

Scientists know! Ha! ha! Oh you forgot about research? Ha! ha! Well of course they were from that far back in time that we have trouble saying anything about their ethnicity. One thing is certain. They were a distinct people who were in the islands FIRST! Shame! Looks like youse lot will have to stop claiming victimhood and waffling on about being "here first". Know what I mean sonny? Oh yeah you can't admit that 'cos then you wont be able to continue your favourite pastime, i.e. feeling sorry for yourselves.

As for the Norman/English thing...
The Norman/English thing? It wasn't a norman English thing, it was a norman thing. Why are the castles in Wales called NORMAN castles? Huh?
I mentioned the Romans as a joke! Something you seem to like doing!! I was being sarcastic! The
Romans did rule "Wales"...for 400 years!!

Stan Moss said...

Our mate anonymous from South Bendo (I.P. address, ever heard of it?) can't even read.

He mixes up who posted what, he's totally ignorant about history and he keeps calling people "boyo", "little biatch", "stupid". Lovely and amicable. No wonder he was told to fuck off in no uncertain terms...

He's all over the place, as incoherent as a possessed hosepipe spraying mud left, right and centre.
Hence, impossible to have a civilised debate with.

You say Ireland was oppressed by English? He answers that some Irish people fought in Mexico.

You argue that England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland should be wholly separate and he answers that "you hate Europe" and should go and live in Algeria or Botswana.

Basically, you say "A", he answers "SHIT"·

What is he on, this person?
Have you taken speed, "boyo"???
You come across like that wacko nutter from American Beauty, the neighbour's dad with all the military and nazi memorabilia.

Perhaps we should adopt the same policy most blogs choose to adopt i.e. to BAN anonymous posts.

Emma said...

"Ha ha ha ha ha"
Someone likes the sound of their own voice. You must be great fun at social gatherings anonymous. You remind me of the usual strange person you find at weddings, that bloke people always try to avoid and warn people not to talk to because they're incredibly odd.

At risk of giving sordid little 'anonymous' too much importance, it is suggested that the best way of putting forward your opinions and arguing your point is to do so respectfully and without childish name-calling to blog members.

Also, judging by the length of your last post, you really seem to have a lot of time on your hands, and should maybe find another way of letting off steam. I.e - Going out, making friends... Yes?

And that is the last comment I'm posting in this discussion.

Ciao! :)

Ceri said...

Anonymous...
You are quite bizarre.
You throw accusations of fascism around, yet have an almost Nazi ideal of racial types.

Your examples of Irish or Scottish atrocities are utterly beyond any point that I (or anyone else) made.

You don't know British history, nor are you very up to speed with archeology, yet this doesn't stop you throwing around strange accusations or utterly untrue 'facts'.
So, last one before we end this...
yes the people of iron age Britain were culturally 'British'- the Roman Britannia was derived from Prettania, the term used by the islanders themselves, and the origin of both 'British' and the Welsh 'Prydain'.
The Beaker folk (or do you mean volk?)They are not the first recorded culture in Britain, plenty of others before them, or perhaps you'd like to explain who built all the neolithic monuments in Britain, as the beaker folk are, as I recall, associated with Bronze age Britain.
There is no agreement that the Beaker folk, or any other group associated with prehistoric artefacts formed a coherent 'tribal' group. In fact, it was just such an association that led to people seeing Celts as a tribe and also seeing a Celtic Britain.

As for genetic studies of ancient people- very dodgy, since there is so little material for most and we don't really know what to make of the info anyway- this might change in the future. However, some studies of British and other European DNA have suggested that the only real genetic divide that could be seen in Britain was between East and West, and that this had been the case for thousands of years, which rather puts pay to your 'tribes'
I can't be bothered to respond to anything else. and I'll ignore the racist bollocks.
Hwyl fawr.

ChrisDelo said...

I am English, but as my name shows i have a french heritidge (400 years ago :P)

Firstly i will like to state that this whole nationalism, lets all seperate thing is very dangerous. Places should never be seen as static. So cutting off ties with the rest of the UK would be dangerous as we are interconnected as two nations.

I am a Student and i am currently living in Wales as i am studying there. But because of this nationalist talk there is a lot of tension between the youths of the two nations England and Wales.

Now the culture you love as Welsh people is not Welsh at all really, you pride yourself in your rugby, however that was a sport given to you by the English, football also. So before blaming the English for everything just remember that your culture wouldn't exist without us. I'm not ranting, but i totally disagree with this idea of i'm bored lets moan at the english.

If anything just ask yourselfs one question, is it really that bad life as it is?

We are one human race, one people, why split us up, why not we all be global citizens instead of bickering about something that is so unimportant in todays soceity. Millions are starving and dying and all we can do is throw petty insults to each other. I think its time we all just grew up.

Best Wishes to the people of the world!

benjaminhale said...
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benjaminhale said...

Ben


I think there has been no better time for the Welsh youth to finally begin talking about Independence, as the old will soon die and it is up to 'us' to shape our futures. After all it is the Welsh youth who are now reviving the language, for instance (me being a non-welsh speaking twenty one year old who has recently started Welsh language courses). We must cut our economic ties we have to the failing 'City of London'. Independence would mean extra EU funding, no defence funding and our own taxation proposals.

I say we quickly get out of this sinking ship 'boyos' and swim for a Wales that can rise out of this recession stronger and independent from London. Maybe create a Anglo-Saxon/ Celtic economic,trade relationship that allows us all to benefit.

If anything this blog proves England's reluctance to let go of the past in a world that is increasingly looking like a world where 'England' can no longer throw it's large weighted fist around and ask for it's will to be done, and I believe this is what we are seeing here. England is totally bigoted towards other European nations and hates almost all others, 'chincks, paki, Sheep shaggers' because you are aware you no longer have control and you bitterly resent this.

I see an independent Wales where the Welshman can sing his songs, play rugby till his lungs burst, hear his children speak the ancient tongue in the modern world and feel, free once again, free, in a free world.

Cymru Am Byth

ChrisDelo said...

Ben the globe is interconnected. You cannot simply say an Englishmen is an Englishmen and a Welshmen is a Welshmen. People who class themsleves as welsh may have come from England hundreds of years ago, so in fact their ancestors are the ones who conquered the country they live in and are the people they hate so much. Vice Versa applies.

Also i think you forget a major flaw in your ideas of becoming independent, thats called democracy. Fact is there is more people in Wales who want to remain part of the UK, so to give something the MINORITY want is unfair on the MAJORITY. To be honest i wouldn't mind seeing Wales becoming independent. It's just i think its better to do things for the majority.

Also London is not a dying economy at all. England holds the majority of the UK's wealth, also England pays for Welsh and Scottish 'free stuff' which England dont get. Scottish NHS drugs, tution fees, bursaries.

Wanna risk ur economy crashing? Where do you think you get most of your grain and crops from? Certainly not Wales. Blocking off ties would be a very very stupid idea.

Is Wales that much of a shithole as it is? I live there and i know its not. You still have pride of being Welsh, i can see that, economy is going good with UK, your restoring your language and also getting your own assembly (i know it does nothing but its still there) but thats being in the UK.

benjaminhale said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
benjaminhale said...

very valid points delo, however the majority of those that voted against a none independent Wales will be dead in the next 10 years, and the youth are a completely different flock. I'm 21 and extremely in touch with my peers and I feel I am simply voicing their concerns and dreams for the future. I have heared your argument many times before and do not fear it in the slightest. There are many independent nations in the world smaller than ours that survive incredibly well.

I understand your argument when you say the world is interconnected, me having a very rich ancestry am fully aware of migratory patterns. But like it or not the Welsh,Cornish, Irish and Scottish, through blood, or upbringing are entirely different to the English in culture and social ideals. You ask any Celt, we enjoy a common Celtic friendship/brotherhood that the English are removed from. So in terms of Englishmen, that is what you are to us. Our Anthems are mere defiant pieces of poetry written in defiance of an oppressive country long ago. And this has been bred into us, and I often struggle to explain to the English.

I enjoy the reoccurring English side to the argument because there is a beautiful sense of worry hidden within your words. A worry that you are slowly losing your grip.

As for London being a financial hub... not any more, read the news. It's moving east. And North Seal oil/gas will dry up in the next 24 years. Those are your two major economic exports.

Please do not take anything I say personally.

ChrisDelo said...

Don't worry i dont take anything personal. Also i dont mind if Britain collapses into its constituents. Wouldn't effect me at all.

I just argue the reasons for independence not the actual trying to seek it. Change occurs, Britain was inhabited by tribes before Romans or Normans came to the island. Then the Normans invaded, and as we know controlled England, the people who lived in England at the time of the Norman invasion didn't dissapear, they are still genetically the same but under a different name.

Also there was a genetic bottleneck 60,000 years ago and the human population was only a few thousand, so in fact you could say we are all related to these few thousand.

I think the only way this will be sorted is to hold a vote now. Everyone in Wales should vote for independence or remain in UK.

Also younger generations are the ones that hold the most extreme ideas, the older, wiser people of this world also held extremist views when they were younger. For instance most IRA supporters are 'young', of course a few elder people are involved, but most backing is from the young society.

A vote is what Wales needs, same with Scotland and N.Ireland.

benjaminhale said...

it's nice to have such a well mannered debate once in a while Delo :-)

Anonymous said...

Just a note - Walter Scott did not make up the term "celt". Furthermore, most scholars agree that the term Celt does not refer to a genetic related group of people but rather to people who share the same culture expressed in the use of a celtic language.

Now unless you think Walter Scott also made up the various varieties of the celtic language, I think we could all agree that life in Wales is characterized now and has been characterized for many centuries by the speaking of the welsh ( p form Celtic) language and hence they are Celts.

I would think that any English nationalist would understand the deasire of the Welsh to be their own nation. In the same way that the English are justly proud of their nation so are the Welsh proud of their place.

As for the outrage over Welsh MP's having a say in English affairs, has it not occurred to you that for centuries the English had a say in Welsh affairs? And even now, since English MP's dominate the UK parliament, that decisions about the economy, wheither the nation shoudl go to war, who we should ally ourselves with, are made for the Welsh people by a parliament overwhelmingly controlled by the English.