Part 4 of our Pre-election guide. Today, Daniel Hoffmann-Gill attempts to get into the mind of a BNP voter.*Author's disclaimer: I despise the BNP and everything they stand for. I've spent a fair few years working both online and in the real world to disrupt and challenge their racist, myopic and unworkable ideas. Hence, I feel that I know their nonsense talking points inside out and, from a position of utter disbelief that their pseudo-policies engage reasonable minds, wanted to try and write and perhaps, start to grasp, the BNP voter perspective.
I urge you to vote for the BNP at the forthcoming elections because we are the only honest party, the only truthful party, that is willing and able to stand up and say the things too many are afraid to say. We will say them because our country needs saving from the horrors that have been inflicted on it by decades of inept and useless governance. We are the party to save Great Britain.
You will not hear "I'm not a racist but..." coming from me. I am a racist. We all are. Even you reading this, right now. It might not be obvious but we all have our deep-set personal prejudices towards different ethnicities based on our very real life experiences. These are natural and right; a defense mechanism against external threats that threaten our way of life here in the UK. And I can assure you, it is under threat.
Is it racist to point out just how much violent crime is committed by non-whites? Or that foreign imports destroy our indigenous industries, leaving us weak? Or that immigrants undermine our indigenous workforce and lower standards? Or that the Islamification of the UK brings with it severe repercussions for our human rights and our personal safety, under the deadly siege of terrorism? Is it racist to point out that the abuses of our democratic systems by these foreigners makes their very end all the more likely? At what cost? What are we getting from this one-way deal? Let us not forget our brave servicemen and women, who are spilling their precious blood in foreign land and for what end? At what cost? For far too long, Britain has been abused, exploited and taken for granted by those coming to our shores and at what cost? But no longer, if you vote BNP.
And many people already have done and yes, you may be comfortable dismissing some 1 million people who voted BNP in the European Parliamentary elections as idiots, but ask yourself this: what gives you the right? Who made you judge and jury? The BNP speaks to and for this ever growing silent majority. Is Political Correctness and fear limiting the scope and range of your ideas? Must not this fake idol but sacrificed at the altar of truth and you turn to us?
So dismiss us. Give us 'No Platform'. Attack the personalities of our parties with vile accusations but oddly never our raft of excellent policy. Drag up ancient dictums of our party to browbeat us with, even though we no longer believe in them. Do all of these things and know that it will only make us stronger, because men and women all over the UK believe in us to be their lone voice, speaking truth to power, in their moment of need as their country slips through their very fingers. Join us, your country needs you.
Daniel Hoffmann-Gill is an actor and writer. He blogs at Blurred Clarity.
[Tomorrow: Labour Left, by HarpyMarx]
You will not hear "I'm not a racist but..." coming from me. I am a racist. We all are. Even you reading this, right now. It might not be obvious but we all have our deep-set personal prejudices towards different ethnicities based on our very real life experiences. These are natural and right; a defense mechanism against external threats that threaten our way of life here in the UK. And I can assure you, it is under threat.
Is it racist to point out just how much violent crime is committed by non-whites? Or that foreign imports destroy our indigenous industries, leaving us weak? Or that immigrants undermine our indigenous workforce and lower standards? Or that the Islamification of the UK brings with it severe repercussions for our human rights and our personal safety, under the deadly siege of terrorism? Is it racist to point out that the abuses of our democratic systems by these foreigners makes their very end all the more likely? At what cost? What are we getting from this one-way deal? Let us not forget our brave servicemen and women, who are spilling their precious blood in foreign land and for what end? At what cost? For far too long, Britain has been abused, exploited and taken for granted by those coming to our shores and at what cost? But no longer, if you vote BNP.
And many people already have done and yes, you may be comfortable dismissing some 1 million people who voted BNP in the European Parliamentary elections as idiots, but ask yourself this: what gives you the right? Who made you judge and jury? The BNP speaks to and for this ever growing silent majority. Is Political Correctness and fear limiting the scope and range of your ideas? Must not this fake idol but sacrificed at the altar of truth and you turn to us?
So dismiss us. Give us 'No Platform'. Attack the personalities of our parties with vile accusations but oddly never our raft of excellent policy. Drag up ancient dictums of our party to browbeat us with, even though we no longer believe in them. Do all of these things and know that it will only make us stronger, because men and women all over the UK believe in us to be their lone voice, speaking truth to power, in their moment of need as their country slips through their very fingers. Join us, your country needs you.
Daniel Hoffmann-Gill is an actor and writer. He blogs at Blurred Clarity.
[Tomorrow: Labour Left, by HarpyMarx]
45 comments:
I am fascinated as to see what kind of response this gets...
See if the so-called 'moderators' allow this one then.
Why don't you ask a BNP sympathiser to scribble a pro-Labour or LibDems piece?
This one here is obviously a very poor attempt at mimicking people who don't share your own ideas and don't subscribe to the PC consensus that is pissing off more and more British people everyday.
Mock us as much as you like, but the day or reckoning will come on May 7.
Oh dear.
Never a wise idea to start a comment with a rant against comment moderation because if they let it through, you've immediately lost the argument as they, well, let it through.
It is not an effort at mimicking or indeed mocking, it was inspired an based upon numerous Nick Griffin speeches I have read and watched.
Although it is funny that you echo the pieces obsession with the dreaded fiction of Political Correctness, the seeming cause of all ills in the UK today, with no sense of irony whatsoever. You also echo the classic BNP trait of overestimating the support for your ideas when you say 'pissing off more and more British people everyday' so for a piece you claim mocks and mimics, it actually seems quite in tune with your attitudes, whether you can see it or not.
And indeed, we will see what occurs at the General Election, until then, no crowing about imagined results because they are just that: imagined.
You* had just about the perfect conditions in the Euro elections in 2009.
A hated Labour government.
Mass unemployment.
Large-scale immigration.
An electoral system that, if there were any popular support for you, would have led to a storming victory.
So where the fuck were the silent majority? Obviously they stayed silent, if you couldn't get more than 6% of the vote. Now you're celebrating that, but only becaus you're used to getting derisory levels of support. Any serious party would view your result as a total disaster, it only seems like a victory to you because you're such a shite party.
The fact is that if you couldn't win big, & that wasn't winning big, on that occasion you'll achieve fuck all. Why do you insist that people agree with your views when they get their chance to show agreement but never take it?
What will you do when you lose in Stoke Central, in Burnley, & in the rest of your "strongholds"? In Barking, you might scrape in but you'll get nothing done. Who the fuck would be glad of having one MP in the first place? Liberal Democrats would be dismayed at having their representation reduced to one, yet it's a big deal to you.
Is that because the big boys are picking on you? Well, fuck off & get the silent majority to storm the barricades then. Let's see these people who supposedly agree with all your views get off their arses & vote for you. I'll be waiting.
For a long fucking time.
* Yes, Daniel, I know you're not really BNP, I'm just talking to this persona you've used.
patriot,
as long as you don't write anything offensive, your comments will be published. Otherwise, it's just a case of clicking on the button that says DELETE, just like your other comment earlier on.
It's that simple.
Asquith:
No offence taken, I was hoping for a comment like that, to rebut the vacuous BNP soundbites. Good stuff!
The reader will be able to make up his mind as to who's being abusive and insulting....
ASQUITH:
the answer is staring at you in the face. The BNP got 6% of the vote ***in spite of*** abnormal levels of media hostility that have never seen before in this country against a political party!?!
3/4 of articles about the BNP are abusive, defamatory or just take the piss. Nick Griffin is stalked and pelted with eggs wherever he speaks. BNP people are pigeonholed as characters from a horror movie...
The Liberals don't get that. Labour don't get that. The Tories don't get that. If the BNP were given the same kind of media coverage you would see the results...
Ask most indigenous people. Whole lots agree with most of what the BNP stand for. But they're afraid to openly come forward and I cant fault them. We live in a country where you get the sack or publicly slain if you support the BNP. No wonder we ***ONLY*** got 6%.
A basic example? My comments get deleted if they contain a single cussword. Asquith's comment is full of insults and it's allowed through.
It irks me like fuck, but at least it's a truthtelling example of how "democracy" functions in our coutry.
My comment contains a lot of substance, whereas yours never do. I didn't need to swear, what I said stands up without it, I just wanted to.
We have anonymous ballots. You can tell these people who intimidate you that you're a hardcore Lib Dem, then vote BNP. If the silent majority can't see through the hostile media & see the truth of what you're saying, then what use are they, or you? You get your chance but you achieve next to nothing.
I'll tell you what democracy is. Set up your own blog. The amount of trolling you do here suggests you've got time. Then, see how many readers you get. You've got no right to have your comments taken seriously, but if there are these enraged BNP supporters walking the streets they'll all surely want to agree with your insights.
Wow, the patriots rants make for awful reading but are useful further insight into the mind of a BNP voter.
First up is the classic victim complex, a crucial part of the BNP mentality, the underdog role, never of course questioning why so many people are hostile to the BNP, the problem is always somebody else's, not the BNP.
Then there is the old indigenous chestnut (again, included in my piece, which the racist deemed inaccurate but he echos constantly) which is an issue in itself, the idea of indigenous British people but then he does what I did in my piece (again, with no irony) makes out that this fictional silent majority exists even though they only previously managed 6% of the vote in the EU elections which in turn equalled 2% of the total electorate.
All of this: "Whole lots agree with most of what the BNP stand for. But they're afraid to openly come forward and I cant fault them." is fiction, made-up, no evidence and myth BUT it is crucial for the BNP voter mindset, otherwise they would have to face the fact that their views are minority views, are not representative of the UK at all and are fringe at best.
Again, nothing is the BNP's fault, everything else is to blame. No responsibility because if patriot and his ilk ever, ever had to do that they would be faced by questions too tough to answer within the slim and myopic parameters of the BNP mind-set.
Finally, as they always do, they play the censorship card, in one final and desperate effort to enable their vile views to be given air; forgetting that their entire platform is based on the silencing of a huge raft of the UK population who do not share the desired DNA or gene pool.
Awful, simple minded stuff indeed.
That article does read as if the writer sups his material with long spoon , allow me to have a stab at it :
What does it come down to , who do you trust ? Well it cannot be New Labour . Anthony Neather told us what we all knew anyway these were his words before he got nobbled
NEATHER: …they ( New Labour ) broadly viewed immigration as a good thing, both culturally and in terms of the labour market. They were committed to multiculturalism sort of as a facet of social justice, if you like.
GOODHART: Which in itself is connected to the collapse of so many other left-of- centre ideas – I mean giving up on any sort of distinctively left-of-centre political economy, giving up on the working class.
NEATHER: Absolutely, absolutely, and I think diversity as a leftist language of social justice and, if you like, I mean crudely seeing ethnic minorities as essentially the standard bearers of the sort of social justice rather than the working class and traditionally the white working class…..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8494275.stm
We have been abandoned .Of course they soon shut him up and their smoothy Oxbridge courtiers are quick to spit they lies at you but we heard …we heard. We know from the House Of Lords, that bunch of deluded extremists , that the ten year long lie about Economic Benefit was just that .It turns out that the country could have got along just as well without Somali drug dealers terrorists and their sympathizers after all . Turns out that the government has been lying about the numbers as well.
Here are some .Of the 3,000,000 houses to be built on the South 2,000,000 will be occupied by immigrants yet to arrive and they say it does not cause a housing shortage .Do they think we are quite mentally defective ? Who says so , Nicholas Soames and Frank Field not the BNP .One in Four babies is born to a foreign mother -White children are a minority now in a fifth of education authorities Birmingham has 300 schools 57% of primary and 52% of secondary pupils are from non white families35,000 of the 96000 who settled here last year do not speak English. A survey of 300 Mosques by the BBC showed that only 6% preached in English In a recent survey of young Muslims One in 8 admires al Qa’eda ., 40% want Sharia law in Britain and 75% want women to wear the veil those are the facts . Then we are told to not want this is racist but what gets me is this
The people pontificating at you universally send their children to all; white Prep school and then public school commute from All white Dorset when if they are Billly fucking Bragg they continue to sermonise at us whose communities have been shattered
As to racism read lefty Nick Coen , he will tell you the most racist groups in the country by any measure and Muslims and then Hindus , they are the ones “disgusted at the thought of their marrying a black man” . We are changing they are going backwards but are they denied a voice , oh no!
They are planning to have all black short lists how does that sounds with the word white in it , yes that’s right we get stuffed even more, so Asian Lawyers and poncey sounding women get a free ride
But then New labout have a funny attitude don`t they , no problem with picking on the Poles to save tt Crewe , no problem whining about he darkies shinning up the housing list in Barking have you Margaret Your fucking highness Hodge . No problem with telling a pack of lies about British Joibs for British Workers have they Brown. What did the idiot Mandy suggest , we go off to Europe well it worked for him but I have skills , and I am not going fucking grape picking in Italy to suit uninvited foreigners
Its true in the past we have confused Nation hood with the colour of your skin but that is changing. How would Labour like to answer for its support of the murderous Soviet Regime or the Conserva6tyve for its support of Apartheid forever . We talk about “memory and allegiance “ and I am quoting socialist David Maquand .We are an ethnicity ands this is our country our home .
Do you continue to put up with the lies and sell out toffs who despise you , your marriage your loyalty your culture and your community or do you vote for change , for a Party who believes there is such a people as the English , England is their home and any discussion of tolerance starts there or it does not start.
Memory and Allegiance , Loyalty Standards and Polices that put British People First . Why do we have open door immigration when the people say they hate it whenever they are asked ? Why have we sold out the country by avoiding a promised referendum ? Why are we continuing to increase foreign aid when we cannot afforded to look after our own ?
Well bit of a mess no doubt but raise a few or the real issues I think. You have to remember 90% of votes carts the the BNP are in New Labour areas , it would be wrong to only doubt them and no the propoganda machine they are competing with
Right-whingers always say people who don't live amongst immigrants have no right to talk about immigration. Well, I live in an Asian part of Burnley and I've got no complaints to make. You claim Muslims are racist towards blacks, so are black Muslims racist towards themselves? I am black, and the only people I've known to have a problem with that are the local BNP.
But let's follow this "argument" further.
Do you have the right to talk about immigration, given that you live in Lewes? If you think Billy Bragg can't talk about immigrants, then neither can you.
What about Rod Liddle, living in Wiltshire? Funny how he wanks over the "white working class" but won't live on one of my local estates, isn't it?
What about Richard Littlejohn, who IS an immigrant, living in Florida? Does that mean he has no right to talk about Britain? Well, I'd be glad if he stopped talking bollocks, alongside all the right-wing expats who have made parts of Spain so shit to live in (look at some of the entries on this blog).
Fuck me, Newmania in Lewis...
You're a force of nature, you are. But it wouldn't harm if you went over your comments a couple of times before posting. They're really quite obscure and tortuous, and I mean no offense by it. I'm sure you have interesting ideas, but you make it really difficult for the readers.
That said, I totally agree with Anonymous 2:20PM (though I'm not keen on anonymous posts).
Right-whingers always say people who don't live amongst immigrants have no right to talk about immigration. Well, I live in an Asian part of Burnley and I've got no complaints to make
I am not a BNP supporter, we are a mixed race family actually. I share a concern about immigration to some extent , we moved from London a year or two ago, when we had children. Sorry it was bashed out in a hurry, the points then are these.
1 New Labour encouraged mass immigration to dilute the culture and communities of its core support. Neather told us the truth. They cannot be trusted
2 The House of Lords Report concluded that the line that immigration is good for the Economy is simply not true.
3 Housing problems are Caused by immigration see Frank Field and N Soames report
4 The rate of change is startling especially in schools ., many lies have been told
5 Very few New Labour MP`s send their own children to the multicultural paradises they have made for those who live in them
6 By the standards of Muslim and Hindu immigrants white working class people are unfairly judged . They are demonstrably the most racist but escape all censure
7 Blacks and other incoming populations are favored over whites .Imagine a white only short list a white police organization
8 The BNP is leaving its confused past behind and turning into a Nationalist working class movement where it is the second choice of 30% of Labour voters , that is why they hate us .. why uniquely judge them by past mistakes ?
Broadly New Labour has abandoned the working classes and the majority who do not share its progressive agenda are disenfranchised .
Newmania has gone mad, I'm not quite sure what he is saying or why he feels the need to vomit it out here but such are the thoughts the BNP attracts.
Daniel, I thought that was a good post. One thing I would like to see though is the left admitting that they are indirectly responsible for the rise in the BNP. By left I mean particularly New Labour. I'll give examples:
1. Surrendering UK sovereignty to an unelected EU Commission. Gives rise to nationalism which includes of course the BNP.
2. Continually engaging in childish self abasement about the UK. They are not proud to be British and always talk the country down. A consequence of this is that only the BNP and Loyalist paramilitaries fly the flag. In fact some left wing councils have banned the union Jack. Why not reclaim it guys?
3. Continually tip toeing around Islam and peddling the lie that is tolerant, pluralistic or modern. Then whenever something happens to disprove that it's all about how 'extremists' have hijacked the religion. A position that is simply untenable. Yet that is the BBC position and some on the left go even further and openly court Islam. Indeed Jack Straw at the time of the Muhammad cartoons was full of condemnation, for publishing the cartoons! Nice one Jack no wonder white people n Blackburn will now favour the BNP. This point is aimed at the left in general not you guys.
Then there is the issue of immigration. We wouldn't need immigration if we got some of own people off benefits but we do. New Labour (and the Tories!) imported large numbers of immigrants and then Labour sought to legislate in the immigrants favour. Harriet Harpersons equality Bill was a case in point. As well as perhaps being a potential thank you to probable Labour voters. So now those white working class people suffer indirectly due to positive discrimination measures aimed at favouring other communities.
The sadness is that in places like Oldham and Bradford the white working class people should be an easy constituency for the left. After all they were solidly old labour a generation ago. The left has abandoned them, you should reclaim them.
A quick plan to defuse the BNP? Simple enough, 1. Manage immigration properly. Reserve entry to those who will work and pose no threat, first sign of trouble deportation.
2. End all positive discrimination measures.
3. Fly the flag and be patriotic, it's a scandal that racialist groupings have hijacked the Union flag.
4. Maintain sovereignty and democracy. Left and right were at one time both against EU membership.
5. Actually state that the democratic and Judeo-Christian tradition of the UK is a good thing and here to stay. That immediately weakens the argument of those who 'wish to protect the British way of life'. Instead of wishy-washy opportunistic measures to combat the myth of Islamaphobia.
Make it a tough love for the BNP supporters. Tell them they can fly their flags and even work in industry like they used to. Only they'll have to as their benefits are being stopped. They can now do the jobs that go to the immigrants.
Hi Paul, cheers for that.
I'm not one for passing the buck of the BNP onto the left or anyone for that matter, seems a cheap shot and also gives the BNP more credit than they deserve when actually their impact is slim to say the least.
I'd rather lay the charge at voter apathy and also ignorance, plus the failure of Labour to articulate immigration facts and the failure of the Tories to move at all from their unworkable immigration position.
With regards to your bullet points...
1. No sovereignty has been surrendered, this is the talk of a loon, not a compes mentes individual.
2. The talking down of the UK is a complex and wide reaching phenomenon that has roots in many places and complex reasons for existence. There are no quick fixes to this and fo rme personally, clinging onto flags and lines drawn in the sand is pretty dated and daft.
3. Personally, I have no time for any religion, Islam is as bad as Christianity is as bad as Judaism is as bad as...Our obsession with Islam and the demonising of its followers is a problem as it borders on bigotry.
I have no tolerance for backward ideas but while we still have churches here, then we have mosques too and until everyone realises all religion is a waste of time, then we will have no fear of hypocrisy as we target one religion but not the next. They are all the resort of the simple-minded. Bigotry as you expound is no sensible solution.
4) The old chestnut of immigration, I think this shows us up to be simple minded creatures obsessed with tiny details and missing the big picture of existence as we sell our tawdry wares.
The idea that any nation, esp. ours does not need immigration and migration (concepts as old as time) and that all we need to do is get the lazy benefits scroungers off their arses is utter, utter mind blowing horse shit.
It is this delusional thinking that is the safe house of ignorance and in turn bigotry.
It reminds me of the post Berlin Wall discussions in Germany (I'm a German Jew and still have family there) when the West German economy was more than happy to have Turks filing menial roles but as soon as the crunch came, anti-Turkish violence started in both East and West.
It's as if skin colour donates right to work, or human rights in general and if that you came here and are now naturalised, you do not have those rights if, God forbid, there is a recession, people should give up work and hand the jobs to white folks?
Madness.
Blinkered, racist madness with no basis in reality.
You talk of reclaiming, as if commodities, you talk as if those that come here have no such rights.
Your so called quick plan to deal with the BNP has about as much basis in workable politics and real life as Alice in Wonderland. I'm not sure what is more worrying, that you think this could actually work or that it is any kind of solution at all.
With people like you and patriot I often lose hope in this country and think that my talents here are wasted and a return to Germany would be a sound move.
And you do know positive discrimination doesn't actually exist in the UK?
It's as if by waving a great big fucking flag all our problems will be solved.
I'm glad you'll never see a position of power in your life.
I'm off for a cold glass of pop to help get your idiotic ideas out of head.
Newmania has gone mad, I'm not quite sure what he is saying or why he feels the need to vomit it out here but such are the thoughts the BNP attracts.
You mean knowing something about immigration Labour Policy facts relating to immigration and in general the subject. I `m not sure the confession of bewildered infantile ignorance is all that impressive so whats your case ?
You know what makes people vote BNP , thinking , reading and knowing things
Genius HG.
New Labour (and the Tories!) imported large numbers of immigrants and then Labour sought to legislate in the immigrants favour.
Gerroff the rate has quintupled since 97 thats rubbish . If we went back to 97 levels we would asll be fine . This is New Labour`s mess and no-one elses. Generally agree with your post though
Newmania said:
"Gerroff the rate has quintupled since 97 thats rubbish. If we went back to 97 levels we would all be fine."
It's a shame because a few months ago I spent some time and did a whole series getting together the immigration figures across the so-called advanced world since 1997.
Statistics clearly state that Britain took as many immigrants, in some cases less so than many other countries such as the US, Australia, Spain or France.
The fact that you still cling onto the same old trite belief that "they all wanna come to Britain" shows how blinkered you are. People can show you as many hard figures as they can. They're wasting their time.
Daniel Hoffmann-Gill,
I love you.
Your answer to Paul was one of the best comments I've ever seen on any blog and I thank you for that. It gave me some hope right when I thought I'd run out.
Because, correct me if I'm wrong, Paul (I always thought you're a reasonable chap), except that you're not saying it, but you're basically implying that the BNP have got a whole lot of grievances spot-on. Their only fault is that they're called "BNP". Were they called "DTT", they would be bang on, right?
So apparently, you think they're right that there's too many immigrants (that's it, we used those foreigners during good times to clean our loos and wipe our old people's arses, now that there's a recession let's dispose of'em). They're right that all those foreigners are snatching our jobs.
They're right that we don't fly the flag no more (but hey the Spice Girls did! And Morrissey too!!!) etc etc etc.
So Paul...can you tell us ONE thing ONE where the BNP are wrong? Can you? Or is it just the name that you don't like?
http://mymarilyn.blogspot.com/2009/11/immigration-myths-1-they-all-come-here.html
Claude I refuted that pack of New Labour lies at the time , clearly only facts that appear to supprt your own prejudices penetrate.
Well I had hoped for a debate and not name calling. I have made ample criticisms of the BNP and their policies on my blog. Now Daniel your 'points':
1. '1. No sovereignty has been surrendered, this is the talk of a loon, not a compes mentes individual.' Please tell us therefore where 75% of UK law comes from? Is it from an elected national Parliament?
2. 'The talking down of the UK is a complex and wide reaching phenomenon that has roots in many places and complex reasons for existence. There are no quick fixes to this and fo rme personally, clinging onto flags and lines drawn in the sand is pretty dated and daft.' Thanks for proving my point. I never suggested that flying a flag remedied anything. I said that banning a national flag by a left wing council was stupid.
3. 'Personally, I have no time for any religion, Islam is as bad as Christianity is as bad as Judaism is as bad as...Our obsession with Islam and the demonising of its followers is a problem as it borders on bigotry.'
Well this starts well but then the last sentence is madness. I'm presuming that you wish the UK to remain a secular democracy. Yet the only attempt to install a theocracy in the west comes from Islam. At least the only credible attempt. The Muslim Brotherhood and Hizb Ut Tahir are international movements. Also the UK government funded MCB is Islamist. Daniel those are mainstream political/religious movements. The Al Qaeda and their ilk are only different in terms of method they share the same goal, Islamic law. On the subject of terrorism you do accept that Islamic movements carried out 9/11, Bali, 7/7 and countless other attacks? They did so with reference to Islam's scriptures I think you know this. That guy Green with his 'Christian Voice' movement may be a loon as well but he is not a chip of the same block
But hey lets not call Islamic terrorism Islamic terrorism! Even though the Jihadist movements do exactly that! (with names like Ansar al Sunna) I mean that would be awfully bigoted.
'4) The old chestnut of immigration, I think this shows us up to be simple minded creatures obsessed with tiny details and missing the big picture of existence as we sell our tawdry wares.
The idea that any nation, esp. ours does not need immigration and migration (concepts as old as time) and that all we need to do is get the lazy benefits scroungers off their arses is utter, utter mind blowing horse shit.'
I never said we did not need Immigration. What I said was that many of the disenfranchised communities that support the BNP are on benefits. They claim these whilst Immigrants actually carry out work they could do. Both Channel Four's Dispatches and the BBC's 'White Britain' highlighted this.
No sovereignty has been surrendered, this is the talk of a loon, not a compes mentes individual.
What are you talking about what do you think Lisbon was about ? Have you been napping for twenty years Rip Van Wankle ? Wake up! For fucks sake read a paper
Our obsession with Islam and the demonising of its followers is a problem as it borders on bigotry.
Oh really and how many caches of arms as was discovered in my local Mosque have been found in the local Methodist Chapel. This is a ridiculous comparison unless you means the IRA and its political sympathisers which is a arguable equivalence. Are you aware of the wide support for the bombers in Islamic Communities I can give you the surveyed figures ort are those facts which you would like to ignore
I have no tolerance for backward ideas
Really why then arte you spouting a ill digested cocktail of 18th century rationalism and Marxism ?
The idea that any nation, esp. ours does not need immigration and migration (concepts as old as time) and that all we need to do is get the lazy benefits scroungers off their arses is utter, utter mind blowing horse shit.
Take that up with the House of Lords then who concluded otherwise , you know nothing about this do you. The Nazis were defeated not by Liberal hand wringing do gooders like Michale conchy Foot .They were defeated by a strong Nation who knew who they were
Newmania,
they are international statistics, and not New Labour's.
You are obsessed with bloody New Labour! I bet you see the words New Labour etched on shop signs when you walk down the high street. Just forget about New Labour for five minutes, will you?
Paul, you have a point -which I conceded during past debates and you know where I stand on the subject- only when you talk about Islamic extremism and its mpact on community relations. The Left is guilty of repeatedly downplaying it, I give you that.
But the rest of your analysis I disagree with.
So I'll ask you once again if I may: would you kindly tell me where you think the BNP has got it wrong?
'It's as if skin colour donates right to work, or human rights in general and if that you came here and are now naturalised, you do not have those rights if, God forbid, there is a recession, people should give up work and hand the jobs to white folks?'
Only I never said such a thing. I will admit that I did not expect you to agree with my plan to defuse BNP support. The fact is that Immigrants do a lot of jobs in this country that UK residents could do. That is a fact; it is not intended to imply that no immigrants should come.
'Because, correct me if I'm wrong, Paul (I always thought you're a reasonable chap), except that you're not saying it, but you're basically implying that the BNP have got a whole lot of grievances spot-on. Their only fault is that they're called "BNP". Were they called "DTT", they would be bang on, right?'
I really should not respond to this as it is insulting. Read what I have said about the BNP and their policies on my blog here:
http://amodernlibertarian.blogspot.com/2009/10/if-youre-former-serviceman-or.html
It appears that you all seem to believe that I am some sort of BNPer. This is strange indeed. What I was suggesting in my original comment was that to understand the BNP you have to understand the swamp they live in. It was largely created by Labour. What I wrote was how the BNP have come to prominence due to policies that have left the white Working class disenfranchised.
I do not expect you to agree with me of course. Indeed Daniel seems keen on swearing black is white. Stating that sovereignty has not been surrendered (you heard of the EU or the Lisbon treaty?) or that there is no such thing as positive discrimination. I'll be fair perhaps you call it something else, But look at Harman's equality Bill. Also look at the changes introduced with regards to 'Racial and Religious hatred'. Or even the NI Policing Act I could go on. But if we agree to disagree that is fine.
I do respect you guys and I am slightly disappointed with the response I got but I'm sure we can all agree to put our dummies back in. Nowhere did I say that I felt Immigration was wrong or even unnecessary. I didn't even say that the BNP are right on immigration. I did say and I stick to it that mass immigration has been a causative factor in the rise of the BNP. That is a widely held opinion even by some on the soft left.
I would welcome your own 'policies' on defusing the BNP. My own were flippant of course but were aimed directly at their core electorate. We can leave the prissy squabbles over whether Islamic terrorism is Islamic terrorism to another day if you like.
So I'll ask you once again if I may: would you kindly tell me where you think the BNP has got it wrong?
In numerous ways whatever else they are they are certainly socialists ( Strasserists ) protectionists and in many ways the Labour Party your parents voted for. They are also despite recent protestations a Party of racists who believe some bizarre cod science .
What they mostly are though is boring .It is the vast numbers fully prepared to vote for them ( See Rowntree report ) that are the point. Their appeal there is in my view founded on real complaints that deserve more than patronising supercilious assertions of greater education.
Claude they are statistics used in a characteristically New Labour way which is to adjust the perspective time scale and starting point until you get the picture you like . In this case it is utterly misleading as I argued at the time.
Paul,
thanks for keeping a civilised tone. I said before you're a very pleasant person to debate and disagree with. Which, especially online with all the ramblers (left right and centre) is not to be taken for granted.
I don't think you're pro-BNP at all. I even agree with your statement that "you have to understand the swamp they live in." That makes a lot of sense.
But I also think the swamp they live in was handed to them on a plate by ten years of tabloid-driven hysteria, lies, fables, gratuituous scaremongering and misinformation.
In my opinion, the tabloid bombardment since roughly 2000 -in some cases it's openly racist- has constituted the biggest recruitment campaign for the BNP. Way more than ill-informed Harriet Harman policies or statements. Of that, personally, I am convinced.
I certainly think you can criticise Islam without being racist & the accusations of "Islamophobia" thrown around can just get too much at times. I am far more for people being able to decide who & what they are rather than it being assumed that they are member of lumpen "communities" & tribal elders speak for them. I have always felt thus.
We who are taking the side of the Malalai Joyas, Jasvinder Sangheras & Boge Gebres of this world will have limited time for pro-faith & morally relativist "arguments".
I can't really be arsed tonight, seriously. But those who have followed my comments will know that I am very pleased to be secular & an individualist. We are entitled to criticise state multiculturalism & support integration (including things like ESOL).
There are quite a few things in this world that you don't need to be right-wing to feel uneasy with, & we shouldn't let conservatives own any issue. You'll have to forgive me for not going on any more length now as I find this thing a bit depressing. Also I have eaten a bit much for dinner so I am not at peak performance.
"3 Housing problems are Caused by immigration see Frank Field and N Soames report "
Frank Field has always been on the hard right of the Labour party. He was part of a Government that hasn't built any council houses and he has the nerve to blame it on immigrants?
Newmania:
Woah there cowboy, your trolling is getting tiresome, all you've got is New motherfucking Labour being at fault for pretty much everything and that the BNP are a half-decent political party. Both those positions make you mad. You also talk about importing immigrants as if they are bits of meat. That may be your flawed English but you reek of summat awful.
And what you class as refuting, the rest of us class as batshit crazy ramblings of an Internet wizard.
Oh and you're a daft racist, if only we got rid of all them damn immigrants and Muslims eh?
Claude:
I love you too man but I'm done here arguing the toss with nutjobs with no grasp of reality or basic human rights, such is the way of BNP posts brother.
Paul:
Sorry, I ain't Claude, he is a patient man with lots of love to give, I just see people trot out tired old, unworkable ideas and I call it as I see it.
I see me a racist, sorry pal but I do. Libertarian values for all apart from immigrants right?
I can argue your points all day long, but I know for fact that you wont move from your bigoted world view and I won't move from being a kind-hearted, open -minded liberal who has a serious distaste for bigotry and narrow minded blame culture bullshit.
So my work here is done, I'll let Claude or some other fellow mop up round these parts. I tell you this though Paul, BNP themed posts always bring the worms out the damn woodwork. You feel me?
I am convinced...
You think it has nothing to do with the huge increase in numbers ? You say the tabloid Press is anti immigration , more so than its readers ? I `m not sure I am sure that the BBC is a resolutely pro multiculturalism as it is pro EU. The BBC is vastly more influential. Polly Toynbee was editor of social affairs for years , how would you feel if Norman Tebbit had a few years to even the score
Your claim that disinformation is the key also sits oddly with the belated admission that migration watch have been right and the ONS have indeed underestimated inward migration
Why do you think the BBC suppressed the information that Aids was primarily being spread by back Africa heterosexual immigrants despite the risk this posed and the waste of resources that resulted ?
Just one example , how is that New Labour argued without serious challenge that immigration made us wealthier for years when there was never any evidence of it ands it has now been quietly dropped .
AS you well know there is overwhelming support fo e reduction of immigration levels . On any other subject this would be acknowledged on this one you simply conclude that everyone else is much stupider than you are
Do you think there is such a thing as England beyond a patch of land and a set of entitlements ? My impression is that the socialists left fundamentally hate the idea of a Nation at all and would prefer its idenity diluted . Thats what Neather said on R4 is that a tabloid myth ?
So Newmania, Polly Toynbee has more of a clout than the Daily Mail, The Sun, The Express, The Daily Star and the Telegraph put together? Right. Sure. Dream on.
And Portsmouth are ahead of Man Utd in the Premier League table. And Malta is bigger than Canada.
Enough for tonight, Newmania. Make sure you have Neather's voodoo doll with you in bed. Oh and a nice cup of horlicks served in a cup that sports a "New Labour" logo. Happy dreams.
'I see me a racist, sorry pal but I do. Libertarian values for all apart from immigrants right?'
Yeah sure I mean look here:
http://amodernlibertarian.blogspot.com/2009/10/if-youre-former-serviceman-or.html
You make an assumption without any evidence whatsoever. The difference between you and Claude is not that 'he has love to give'. It's that he can debate. You can only lie and issue insults.
Sure 'others will mop up around here'. We know you will not engage in debate or answer any point that is made. Neither do you possess courtesy. I'll give you a tip, if you want to label someone as racist or anything else try quoting them it's only fair? Or perhaps you could find some evidence from my blog (good luck with that)?
I mean I could make assumptions about you, with statements like 'no sovereignty has been surrendered' or 'there has been no positive discrimination'. But I understand now that you realise how foolish those statements were and when they were exposed and countered with evidence it stung you into stroppiness.
So Newmania, Polly Toynbee has more of a clout than the Daily Mail, The Sun, The Express, The Daily Star and the Telegraph put together? Right. Sure. Dream on.
The BBC obviously does and the fact that relatively few people buy the Guardian \Mirror and New Statesman doesnot mean they are not equally available and rather more partisan.
Dan - I see now from your insightful comments how wrong I have been.God forgive me.
What a shame this debate has slipped out of hand. I must say, however, that I am with Daniel H-G here and that the debate highlighted the spectacular state of paranoia that reigns supreme amongst the racist xenophobic far-right.
Everything is a conspiracy. Everything is a deliberate, anti-white British ploy. Figures don't count and objectivity can go fuck itself. We're a country run by New Labour's civil servants and their obsession to turn Britain into a non-white country run by commies, Polly Toynbee, New Labour's councils and Peter Mandelson's lover.
You can present all the evidence you want and repeat it ad nauseam. Newmania will go on like a broken record that it's all New Labour's fabrications.
I won't get bogged down into this. I will just remind you of this simple truth: the BNP are thugs. They are a f a s c i s t party and always have been.
Stop trying to make up them excuses on their behalfs. Their gruesome idelogy existed well before migration rose in the noughites. They were actively racist and xenophobic in the 90s, as well as in the 80s and the 70s no matter which specific incarnation.
They singled out easy targets before the EU was a reality and made a living out of professional victimhood. Before the Muslims, the EU and Eastern Europeans there were the "blacks". Before then there were "the Asians" and before then "the Jews". Not to mention "the faggots".
Those are psychofascists. Their ramblings may be incoherent, but theirs is a long, coherent history of violence and cowardice and their history of obsessive recruiting amongst football hooligans throughout the 70s and 80s and 90s is telling. Lansdowne Road 1995. More I will not say.
They would always come up with an excuse or two to persuade you that they're not really racists, no, and that they were simply pushed into it by the powers that be.
Rod Liddle used to edit the Today programme & he's right-wing, doesn't that make up for La Toynbee?
I'm going back on my word here to just agree with Stan Moss because that comment has it down pat.
Racism and nationalist bigotry is as old as time, as Stan points out the bastards point at whatever ill they perceive at the time and run with it, a cloak for their fascism.
Just wanted to back Stan up as his comment was spot on.
Ah well even if Stan was correct with his take on the BNP (I would go along with 75% of it, not 100% as they are not that important.) Who here spoke for the BNP? Also could someone quantify the claim I am a racist?
Thanks Daniel for the kind words.
Now, let's turn the tables for a second here. This constant refrain coming from the Tory/UKIP or Libertarian right, that the Left is allegedly to blame for the BNP rise (which is actually not real- the ratio press coverage vs actual BNP votes has to be one of the most distorted in history...!).
In the 80s, at the height of Thatcherism, the British far-left experienced a massive revival. It was probably their strongest moment since the late 1940s/early1950s.
How would you have reacted if the mainstream Labour Party or the SDP had constantly blamed the Conservatives for the rise of Militant, as well as the Trotzkyists, the Socialists and the Communists?
Would you have said: "Oh absolutely. Sorry very much. We'll revert our policies on trade union laws, nuclear armament, City de-regulation and right-to-buy, because otherwise we run the risk of the far-left taking 20% of the national vote"?
Or would you have just stuck two fingers up?
Stan, I will happily engage with your last point when it is clarified (or withdrawn) how I am a racist? It's a very tired canard that is usually issued out of desperation and an inability to debate. Take note I said I agreed with 75% of your assessment of the BNP.
Paul,
I'm baffled...? When did I call you "a rascist?". Can you find the bit, cos I can't...And that's because I didn't call you anything at all, whether good or bad.
You did not although Daniel did and you appeared to endorse his comments. Still water under the bridge I suppose and by being over sensitive to a non issue I appear as prissy as he.
It appears we share an equal dislike for the BNP. Fair enough as they are racist and although I did not agree with the way the BBC treated Griffin on question time. He did show his foolishness over issues such as the holocaust.
I still adhere to the view that the policies of the left have created a vacuum exploited by the BNP. By left I mean particularly New Labour. They have been the arbiters of positive discrimination measures. Introduced legislation that now makes it illegal to criticise religions (the 2006 Act does not specify but it is intended to protect Islam). They also sold a substantial chunk of UK Sovereignty lock, stock and barrel to Brussels with the Lisbon treaty.
Of course the Tories with regards to the EU are at least as bad. John Major signed the Maastricht treaty that formally gave EU law precedence over UK law. They also oversaw an enormous increase in mass immigration. Far more than was necessary and even some members of their own party have criticised them for that. Claude has commented elsewhere that more immigrants went to other EU countries. I readily accept that. But it does not mean that local services in South East England and other cities are not overwhelmed.
You seem to be keen on peddling the line that BNP support stems from a right wing and xenophobic media. Certainly the Daily Mail and its ilk does not help. I do not believe however it is the root cause of the problem. On a separate note and one I intend to blog separately is that New Labour oversaw an enormous erosion of liberties. I cannot perceive of any method of correcting that other than a written constitution perhaps along the US model. But that is for a separate debate.
Excellent article by Jim Jepps yesterday about the importance of NOT talking up the BNP.
Extract:
"If we make people feel that a vote for the BNP will count, then we will be helping the far-right even as we feel virtuous that we're opposing it.
Let's think about every Liberal Democrat leaflet in the country at the moment. No matter what the Lib Dems' chances are in an area they will be telling voters that only they can win in the local area.
What they would not give for someone independent to go round shouting: "No-one must vote Lib Dem because they might get in, and then everything would change!"
So why should we do this for the BNP? The irony is that if we go out in force in places like Lewisham telling people the BNP is standing, we'll be doing more work in the area than it will.
The fact is that in most places where the BNP is standing, the election is not about the party. We'll only be playing into its hands if we imply that it is. "
I rather agree with that Claude. Since you mention the Lib Dems I recall that the BNP in France are about ths same size which gives you an idea of their place in French National life.
Of the red herrings you fling up to confuse the extent of immigration here the only places really comparable are France and Holland both of whom are showng far more signs of political strain .
This is not then ,as the comments here imply,a place full of racism and intolerance least of all (actually) in the white working class and it is quite quite wrong to lump ordinary concerns about unwanted and overly rapid change with historic acts of genocide or wierd eugenic theories.
Post a Comment